David SummerhaysDavid Summerhays: Welcome in everyone, my name is David Summerhays and this is the Forging Purpose podcast. This is a podcast focused on the modern crisis of meaning. Season one features interviews with ordinary people and also experts on the front lines of this crisis of meaning, people that see people struggling with this crisis every day. In that vein, I’m really excited to welcome today’s guest, Dr. Myrna Orenstein, who is a psychotherapist and a licensed clinical social worker who’s done pioneering research on the topic of learning differences. She’s written Smart But Stuck, How Resilience Frees Imprisoned Intelligence from Learning Disabilities. She’s also a former singer with the Lyric Opera and the Chicago Symphony Orchestra Choruses. It’s been one of the great honors of my life to get to know her. She has a really powerful way of communicating.
She’s very honest, very kind, but her boundaries are very, very clear. She does a great job taking care of herself and others around her. It’s just really amazing to watch her wisdom in action.
Her nickname among folks that know her is The Question Queen. She asks a lot of questions, so it’s a real honor to sit down and make her talk for a change. It was hard getting her to finally talk about herself. It’s not easy, but ever since I had the idea for the podcast, I’ve been excited to get her on the show.
Today, I’m really curious to ask her more about learning difficulties. Thinking about how people find meaning, it seems to me that having a learning barrier would be a real block to finding meaning. She gives an example in her book of someone that wants to be a doctor, but he has a learning difficulty and so he can’t pass his math class and he can’t major in biology and have the best marks in the class. He just can’t do that and so he can’t be a doctor. For him, for a long time, his dream is just gone and his meaningful life is blocked. On the other hand, sometimes that barrier can be the central source of meaning in someone’s quest. They might dedicate tons of energy into overcoming those barriers, finding some way to get into med school by just working harder than everyone else. Or they might find other interests or creative ways of creating a meaningful life. Some people end up saying that the barrier they faced is the most important step in their meaning journey.
To me, everyone has barriers and so I was really interested to talk to Myrna about barriers and just the wealth of stories that she has about the way people encounter different barriers.
So without any further ado, let’s bring in Myrna.
Hi, Myrna. How are you doing?
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: Hi, David. I’m doing fine. I’m hanging in. Thank you.
David Summerhays: That’s good. Great. Well, thanks so much for agreeing to be on this podcast. I’ve been so excited to talk to you ever since I had this idea. So thanks again.
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: Oh, thank you for inviting me. I think we’re going to have a good time together.
David Summerhays: Yeah, yeah. Well, we’ll see how much cursing comes out. That’s normally what we do when we hang out. It’s just curse a lot. But as you know, this is a podcast about meaning, how people are their quest for meaning, their like how people are finding meaning. And as you know, I’m really interested in your work on learning differences, the difficulty some people have. So, yeah, I’m really excited to talk to you about that. But first, this is like the question I’ve been asking all of my guests first is just when you were a kid, what was your vision for a meaningful life? And that could be professional. That could be family. That could be anything.
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: Well, as a little background, I grew up either you’d say lower middle class or upper poor. I didn’t think of myself as poor, but we didn’t have much except my father, who was an immigrant, loved classical music. And we spent all of our available time, which wasn’t much, listening to classical music. And so what I wanted to be when I grew up was a prototype of Maria Callas. I wanted to be an opera star. I wanted people to throw rose petals down from the balcony because they were so moved by my operatic voice and stage presence. That’s what I wanted. Wow. What age are we talking here? We’re probably talking, I’d say, oh, 11, 12, 13, that sort of thing when I realized I wanted to sing. My sister was the one who had the beautiful voice and she was always singing arias. So she was older. And in order, of course, to beat her, I had to be Maria Callas.
David Summerhays: Okay. Maria Callas is like a soprano, I guess.
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: Oh, I’m sorry. Maria Callas was one of the most famous, tempestuous opera stars in the 50s, who was just fabulous on stage as well as her voice. Yes.
David Summerhays: Okay. So you wanted her voice and her tempestuosity.
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: Absolutely.
David Summerhays: You were like, you know, I’m just not tempestuous enough. Storm clouds around me. Okay.
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: You want a story about Maria Callas? I’m ready. She would come to Chicago. This was in probably 50, 51, 52. And Lyric, we all just adored her. I think at that point I was in the chorus already of Lyric. And but what happened is she committed some kind of a little street problem. And the newspapers the next day showed some poor server who was coming to, I don’t know what you call it, take her to court, you know, and they have this picture. She is dressed as, all ready to go on stage as Lucia de la Mahor. And she has a fit at this poor server. They have a, and she never came back to Chicago after that. That gives me an idea. And was it like, was it the fact that you had an older sibling who was singing really well that you were like, I want more flowers than that? Yeah.
David Summerhays: Yeah, it’s I’m really struck in this meaning journey how much it’s often like a sibling or like, you know, a parent. And it’s just like, I got to impress these guys. I got to show them, you know, what I’m made of when it’s like a huge part of that meaning journey.
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: It really is. Oh, it really is. When I started high school, my sister was vice president of the Glee Club. She was four years older than me. And I was very shy. But I decided that I was going to be president.
David Summerhays: President.
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: I worked it. I worked it for four years. I got to be president.
David Summerhays: Oh my goodness. Very meaningful. There’s just nothing like beating a sibling.
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: That’s right.
David Summerhays: It just feels so good. So then you were, yeah, you worked in music for a while. And then, yeah, you decided to become a social worker. Like how that was that your sister again?
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: No, that was not my sister. I was doing a lot of singing around town. I sang with I was a professional with the Symphony Orchestra chorus. And I was singing in a synagogue. I had a gig. We were a quartet and the soprano was this beautiful blonde blue eyed girl. And I said to her, Marsha, Marsha, I’m going to be celebrating my 20th anniversary. And she looked at me with big these big huge blue eyes and said, Myrna, I’m not even 20 years old yet. At that point, man, I was in my 40s and I said, it’s it’s it’s time to change. Also, I was pretty depressed and had seen an analyst. He made a huge difference in my life. And I wanted to help other people the way I had been helped.
David Summerhays: So OK, so 20th wedding anniversary. And then you’re just like, OK, all right. These little hot shots are coming up. It’s time for me to get out and do something else.
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: Yes. So I had a degree in music and from Roosevelt University. And I but I was still I was singing and I sang with this guy who was had some connection with the University of Chicago. So when I was applying for schools, nobody wanted me because my grades weren’t that bad and they were all in music. So I applied to various schools and social work. I got rejected and all of them except the University of Chicago. Of course, like the most prestigious one, right? This is one of connections made an awful lot.
David Summerhays: And then there that’s where you started doing research into like just the smart, but stuck.
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: It was it was in my third year of my clinical, my Ph.D. I got a master’s and I started working, doing hypnotherapy for three years, and then I was able to go into private practice after about 10 years. I I wanted to learn more. So I applied to the Institute for Clinical Social Work and got a Ph.D. In there in my third year, I had to pick a question so I could start my research. I didn’t know what I wanted to do, but I had been diagnosed with learning disabilities and I thought, oh, OK, I’ll I’ll do that. And that’s how the question started. So the question was, how did how was life for you before you knew you had learning disabilities? The stories people told me, David, blew me away.
David Summerhays: Yeah, I mean, just reading parts of the book smart, but stuck like, yeah, people with incredible resilience and incredible like courage to keep trying. But facing barriers that are like incomprehensible, so discouraging. Yeah, I mean, it must have been incredible research. But wait, taking a step back, how did you end up getting diagnosed? What was that process like?
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: Oh, well, I was getting a Ph.D. I did fine in at the U of C, except in research. I’m math retarded. OK, excuse the excuse the expression, but I’m using it on myself. So I think that’s OK. Yeah, well, when I hit my research, I had I was screwed. I had it at that juncture. I decided to get tested and. And then began to get help with I’m dyslexic. I have word recall problem that I’ve always had. And I was getting help and it made a tremendous difference in in my life because I could now that I knew what the obstacles were, I could navigate it. But before you know what the obstacles are, it’s very, very difficult.
David Summerhays: So because you were kind of in the world of psych and and because like at that time, this diagnosis and this like research was kind of on the new side.
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: Right. Oh, yeah.
David Summerhays: Because you were in school, you were like hearing about these things. And at some point you were hearing about it and you realized, oh, it’s not just like, oh, I can’t do math or I’m really done with numbers. It’s like, no, no, there’s a there’s an issue here. Maybe you would already been diagnosed with the dyslexia.
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: No, no, not at all. Nothing. Yeah, nothing until I got diagnosed in my junior year. And the person who diagnosed me was incredibly helpful. Opened my eyes to, oh, no wonder. No wonder I have to work so much harder than other people.
David Summerhays: And so, I mean, you knew you were like, listen, I’m not I’m not dumb. I’m not dumb. And there’s something different. Like, I’m just processing this differently. Like information just doesn’t go in the same way.
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: Yeah. And one of the things I learned from the participants of my study when they got tested to be able to first isolate where the obstacles were. But secondly, to see how smart they were. You published a book, but then further additions of that same book. So I assume people contact you on that subject for your research. OK. And has that been like I know you’ve been sort of winding down your practice and have you been putting even more time into the smart, but stuck like learning a little bit? No, no, David, I think as you know, I’m 90 and no, my I’ve given what I’m going to give out there. I’m retired and I hope if it makes a difference in even one other person’s life, I’ve done something that has great meaning to me. Huh. OK.
David Summerhays: But it’s yeah, it’s been like, let’s say, maybe not like the central focus of your professional career, but it’s been a focus. Like, if you write a book, you’re you’re passionate about this issue. You really want.
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: Oh, absolutely. I wanted I did it for my participants because they would say, you got to write something about this because no one had asked them about the emotional ramifications of of living with unknown learning differences. OK. Yeah, it sounded like like the research, let’s say about dyslexia or whatever, was like, OK, and here’s how we do the diagnostics like that piece was starting to become public. But you were really interested in, OK, what about the frustration and how do people deal with this? And do you know what one of my participants said? Because I asked, what’s it like living with an undiagnosed back then learning disability? She said, it’s like having a button, but not being able to find the buttonhole. And that’s what we called in the book, the chasm, the place where you want to learn it. Other people are learning it and you have no links to get there.
David Summerhays: I love that metaphor of the chasm. You’re just like stuck or there’s like a gap between you and where you want to go. Yeah, I mean, yeah, this is I think this is the link that I’m making with meaning that I think is really interesting. Like, it’s somebody that like the first story in your book is you call him true grit and he comes from a family of all doctors and is facing all this pressure to perform. And so for him, like the meaningful that meaningful life, at least initially, is, OK, I got to be a doctor. I have to succeed in school. But there’s the chasm in the way. Like he feels like I can’t cross this thing the way my, you know, genius brother can. I can’t get over that thing in the same way that he can. And like this medical career is down the down the tubes like I really have no chance. So to me, that’s the first part of the equation is how because I’m really interested in barriers in general. Like there’s not it’s not just learning barriers like everybody has barriers. All of us have limits. And I think that’s what’s really interesting about it is like we can we have this goal that’s really meaningful to us. And then we hit the barrier. And it’s like, OK, well, that way that I was hoping to make meaning is gone. And it can’t happen or or it seems that it can’t happen. And it’s really discouraging.
On the other hand, what I’m really interested in is the way a barrier or any kind of limitation becomes the central source of meaning. Like, well, yeah, we talked about it a bit with your sister. But like that sort of tenacity that kind of says, you know, like we’re going this way. That’s that’s the piece I’m really interested in.
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: Here’s an example. And then and then let me lead into perhaps an explanation with true grit. What he did was with all the shame that went along with that, what he did is and this was back in the 50s, he looked and found that in China or Japan, they made Christmas ornaments very, very, very inexpensively. So he ordered those and then he created Christmas tree lights for neighbors for money when he was in high school. And he made a whole lot of money and used that barrier to look for something else. And that leads me into the love of my life, the seeking system. We are all born with seven basic instincts. This comes out of neuropsychoanalysis. Effective Neuroscience is the name of the book. I’m pretty sure by Panksa, P-A-N-K-S-E-P-P. He was a vet who was interested in and was part of psychology departments at several universities. And what he found is that all mammals have these seven basic instincts. One, of course, is sex. Another is nurturance. But the next two are the one and then there’s anger, things for self-protection. But the two that really got to me was play, that all mammals have to play, and the seeking system. Inside of us, we all have a need to look, to wander, to forage. It’s not to get to the learning, it’s the process of learning that is so much fun, it can be, but the need to explore, to look where there hasn’t been, you know, when Star Trek said, we’re going to, what was it, go where no man has gone before, to look. And that’s, I think, a crucial place of meaning and why obstacles are so important, because the obstacle gives you the opportunity to look elsewhere. And once you know that, that you can look elsewhere, then you’re different, because then you know you can do it for other things as well.
David Summerhays: Okay, so let’s say, True Grit, in this example, first we have this need to explore, but we hit the chasm. You can’t explore beyond the chasm. So you’re stuck. Or you’re saying you’re trying to do math before someone’s helping you, because you just process all this information differently. You’re trying to explore math, but you can’t, and so you hate it. And so you can’t do that, exploring, seeking any of that curiosity is all blocked, because you just hate it. And what you’re saying is what’s really exciting and really empowering is to, in a way, sort of let go and kind of say, all right, there’s no going across this chasm. I’ve tried. And so what other directions are there for exploration?
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: Yeah, that’s the key. Yeah, you know, a good example of that is the class clown. The class clown gets people laughing and gets around these deficits. And what, like, when’s the right time to let go?
David Summerhays: How do you know it’s time to let go and try a different direction?
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: Can you define let go, what you mean?
David Summerhays: Well, I mean, like, let’s say you’re trying to cross the chasm and you can’t. Like, when’s that time to say, all right, I’ve tried?
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: I see. OK. I think that I don’t know if you say, OK, I’ve tried. I’m not going to do it this way anymore. I wish I had a really good, I think it’s unconscious. And in your brain, there are these millions of little traffics going on, things talking to each other all over the place. And in your brain somewhere, it says, let’s look elsewhere.
David Summerhays: Because I think it’s the love of learning that propels people to look elsewhere. OK, like, because in my case, learning piano wasn’t, I wouldn’t call it, first of all, seeking or like that love of curiosity. I would call it the rage, the anger system of just like watching my little siblings just do well in school while I didn’t. I would say that was the first motion. The second motion was I realized that playing piano was pretty fun. But I kind of feel that with true grit as well. Like the first motion, or at least a very crucial motion, isn’t just the curiosity. It’s the anger. It’s the like, I’m smart. I, you know, like I’m going to find another way. And like I’m going to, because the big part of his story in your book is the way he gains the respect of his family. And he is respectful, although they didn’t respect his choices at the beginning. To me, that sounds like the anger one.
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: I think that the those two, that anger is definitely can be a component of seeking. Definitely can be. I mean, I, you know, I wanted to be president of the Glee Club. You know, my older sister teased me incessantly. So I was. Yeah. Yeah. So it definitely can be an important and healthy.
David Summerhays: And I’m wondering if you think this makes sense. Like there’s I would call it an element of redemption, like an element of justice, like justice seeking. That’s where the anger piece comes in. What do you think about that for like as a source of meaning?
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: It doesn’t grab me. From your perspective, it’s your there are other people involved. From my perspective, with the chasm, it’s I’ve got to do something to get out of this terrible chasm. And it may or may not impact other people.
David Summerhays: That sounds a lot more mature than my point. No, but that makes sense. From a meaning perspective, again, like it just seems like, you know, you have this chasm and you’re. You got to do something else because you’re like these other folks are just, first of all, like socially speaking, looking at others. It’s all just so easy. Right. And like, I think you can be curious. I don’t know. I’m not sure how you could not be social and not watch socially with it and just feel like, all right, let me focus on my own curiosity. It’s like these other people are just like, everything’s so easy for these jerks.
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: Absolutely. That is a factor. My focus is all is more on not what I’m perceiving from the outside, from other people, but the sense of self. Now, there isn’t very seldom do you find two people who look exactly alike in the world. We all have a face. We all have eyes and nose, but everybody looks different. OK, the self. You have a self, David. That’s not it’s like nobody else’s. And to plug into that self when you’re in a chasm, you can’t plug into. I am me because you have this big gap and that doesn’t involve other people. What would be your advice to someone that’s like, OK, I’m stuck with this chasm. You’re kind of saying the curiosity or exploring somewhere else like math is not connecting dots. So really starting to explore. OK, I think my advice would be the other big factor and meaning for me is connection. Find somebody who can help you. I have in the book, I call them helpers and hinderers. Stay away from the hinderers and look for the helpers. Go there who can understand that you have gifts and you have big deficits and who can be there who’s going to get excited about your gifts.
David Summerhays: So in a way, you’re kind of saying folks that are really stuck and like have this like sort of tunnel vision toward the chasm and you’re like, OK, you’re saying, first of all, It’s like a switch that happens like you’ve tried, you’ve tried, you’ve tried and just like listen to that switch of, OK, I’ve had enough. Like we’ve tried and now it’s time to try a different strategy, which is stay away from those you’re calling the hinderers. Find the helpers. And I mean, in this day and age, when it comes to learning difficulty and stuff like that, there’s a lot more helpers than there used to be.
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: Awareness, particularly for adults. There was nothing back then. And so connection and curiosity. Yeah.
David Summerhays: And I mean, it sounds like also I would assume folks that have this tunnel vision toward the chasm. I mean, for lack of a better word, like there’s just a real hit to their self-esteem.
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: Oh, it’s terrible. And it’s just it’s just awful to feel like nothing in there. Yeah.
David Summerhays: Well, from a meaning perspective, it’s they want to do the meaningful thing and they can’t. So it’s like that’s that’s it’s just a life of emptiness. It’s like a void.
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: It’s like a void, David. Yes. Yeah.
David Summerhays: So and it sounds like a big part of I mean, I just kind of feel this even from this conversation that part of your method when you think about working with these folks and if you were to say like your advice, it would be like you have strengths. You have gifts like maybe this isn’t it. But maybe it is with the right kind of help. But there is something you’re good at and like trying to get away from that tunnel vision toward like the gaps and the things that can’t do and really thinking about, boy, what do I do? What is special about me? Partially because it’s interesting and that curiosity and partially because they’re just their self-esteem is so like destroyed by like just pounding their head against this thing.
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: These but the gap, the gap. I hope people can learn to respect as the vehicle for. Oh, I can’t think of the word. But if you it’s like a traffic thing, if you can see it, you can go in another direction. And so one learns to respect the chasm because once you can see it and acknowledge it and respect it, then it’s easier. As opposed to beating yourself up because you’re so stupid. Yeah, to go a different direction. Like you’re saying, put like traffic cones over it to say, hey, that’s a pretty deep chasm. Why don’t we just leave it alone?
David Summerhays: I gave you the example. This just comes to me of two different folks that have some kind of like accident and they’re in a wheelchair just to make like the metaphors visual as possible. Obviously, learning differences, difficulties are invisible. So that’s like one of the one of the big challenges. Let’s just say it’s something that’s really visible. One says, OK, well, I’m in a wheelchair now. You know, I’d better just kind of explore other gifts that I’ve got. Like I’ve always been good at, I don’t know, reading or writing or something. So, OK, that’s the kind of work that I can do from a wheelchair. Let’s go. And another says, yeah, but I love basketball. And even though I’m in a wheelchair, I want to play basketball anyway.
And using your metaphor, one is like, OK, I see the chasm and like the central focus of my source of meaning is like going over it. Who’s going to build me a ramp? Who’s going to like how do we like zoom over this? And the other is more the kind of curiosity that you’re saying of like, OK, put the like traffic cones around it. And then what’s the other like direction that we can go?
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: But when you say build me a ramp, you’re being curious. You’re trying to find ways. OK.
David Summerhays: Yeah. OK. So you think both of them in a way are kind of the same because you’re saying, how do I get over this versus what’s another direction that I can go?
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: Right.
David Summerhays: And then the folks that so basically the advice you would say is like the folks that just are stuck and they have no meaning. It’s the ones that are just like there’s no curiosity. It’s like they want to get over it their way, you know, like the norm, the normal way, the way their brother’s getting over it.
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: Yeah. And so we can see I’m not saying this is the reason for all alcoholism or getting stuck in computer games, but anything to get away from the chasm. Right. Like addiction and all that stuff. Oh, yeah. It hurts too much. So let’s escape. Yeah. Like an escape is can be positive, obviously, but like, yeah, just like pure escape and just pure avoidance.
David Summerhays: OK. So developing that curiosity, whether it’s over or around or a different direction entirely. Would you say that to you, like when I think about like the meaning of human existence, like like curiosity sounds like it’s really central.
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: Yeah. Learning and curiosity.
David Summerhays: That’s like what humans are here to do.
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: Curiosity and connection with each other. Yeah. That for me is where it is.
David Summerhays: And like why? Like, you know, we’re here this limited amount of time. What what’s meaningful about learning and connecting with others like why it’s just satisfying.
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: It’s just fun. And that’s it. It is exciting. It is exciting to learn something new. It’s empowering. And I have a great story from a participant, if we have time for it.
David Summerhays: Yeah, please.
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: This guy I called Scholar, he was a professor at a prestigious Eastern school and he had an he had auditory dyslexia. He did not take in things well through his ears, as he said. I drive my wife crazy on the phone. OK, well, when he was in seventh grade, he came from wealthy parents who had had every he was in a private school out East, had all the advantages that he wanted and needed. When he was in seventh grade, he said, Myrna, when I was in seventh grade, I got A’s in everything except French. I flunked French. OK. So, David, this is what he asked me. So, Myrna, what do you think? My next course was that I took. So I’m asking you, David. Well, that’s it.
David Summerhays: If he’s the like build the ramp, he would take French.
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: He flunked French. French is the chasm. French is not possible.
David Summerhays: Yeah, then he didn’t take French.
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: No. What did he take? I’m putting you on the spot. He took Latin because Latin is a visual language. That’s.
David Summerhays: That’s resilience.
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: Yeah, that’s finding another way to get through get through school.
David Summerhays: So do you have examples of the type that were really tenacious? Like, OK, I’m going to I’m going to go over this thing and not just around it.
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: Sure. I had one young woman named Scholar. I’m sorry. Sparkly. Sparkly was this beautiful, energetic, lovely, lovely young woman who could not read. And she went to a nice Catholic school. She could not read. So the way she learned, she asked a lot of questions. And her classmates would say to her, Ask questions because it’s so much more interesting. Yes. And she ended up she told me this story about she got tested. She was able to isolate and understand the problem. And she was taking college courses. And so she was taking this course. And with much fear and trembling, she raised her hand and asked a question. And the professor said, Why are you asking this question? It’s in the book. And there you are, stuck, exposed, everybody looking at you. It’s terrible.
David Summerhays: So she sort of developed one strategy for navigating her sort of situation. And this other layer comes up, this other situation. And it’s like, OK, first of all, humiliation. And second of all, yeah, just right back to the chasm. It was really meaningful for you to help people get out of that sense of being stuck.
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: Oh, man. Yeah. Yeah. There was one young man who had severe learning differences and was in a university. And he was not cutting it. His parents knew he had been diagnosed and parents knew there was a problem. He had a lot of serious disabilities. What he did was once he accepted it, he joined a group of like-minded people. And that was so helpful. And he was even able to find a girlfriend in that group. Like-minded, like have a similar difference. Yeah.
David Summerhays: Yeah. Can I ask, this on a slightly different topic. I know, well, you know, I know this because of being your piano teacher for a while. But you would talk about playing piano as, yeah, very frustrating. You would be like, I used to play so much better before. But you’re still learning things. Like you mentioned, yeah, like you had a bit of a breakthrough lately. You said about visualizing yourself on the piano. We were talking about this before we started the interview. Can you describe playing piano? Like it must be, yeah, you’re hitting chasms that aren’t just like barriers. It’s also age. And yet at the same time, you have a curiosity.
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: Oh, I want to play. You know, I’m desperate to play. In fact, I’ve had to temper my wish to play the way I want to play, which would be like Piotrowski or someone like that. But yes, what I’ve learned just recently is there is a link between seeing the notes and seeing what your hands, and playing the piano. And that is a visualization of where your hands are going to go. And I didn’t have that until a month ago. I didn’t know about that link.
David Summerhays: Huh. Wow. I mean, it sounds like you kind of face incredible frustration. And the reward of it is some of these moments of like really learning about yourself, learning about your chasm as well, learning about your gaps. Like I’ve never been able to visualize this before.
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: Right. Yeah.
David Summerhays: All right. Well, that’s all the questions I think I got for you, Myrna.
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: Okay, David.
David Summerhays: Well, we need a special cursing section.
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: No, there’ll be no cursing section. Only in person, David.
David Summerhays: Okay. Sounds good. Well, thanks again, Myrna. This has been really fun. Boy, really learned a lot.
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: Oh, thank you, David. It was really thank you for giving me the opportunity to expound.
David Summerhays: All right.
Dr. Myrna Orenstein: Take care. See you.
David Summerhays: Thanks, Myrna.
David Summerhays: So that was my interview with Dr. Myrna Orenstein, a specialist in learning disabilities. It’s an interview I’ve been excited about pretty much since the day I thought of doing this podcast. You can see why I was so excited to talk to her. Thank you, Myrna, for taking the time to share your experience and learning with our listeners. A couple of things really stood out for me from this episode. First, Myrna’s very focused on people’s experience. She’s really focused on people finding meaning, the excitement of learning, but I’m not sure she’s focused on whether learning is inherently meaningful, whether this matters from a larger universe perspective. In fact, I’m gonna wanna follow up with her in a bonus episode that’s coming up soon. A second thing that was really inspiring from this episode is Myrna’s focus on relationships. Not just finding help, for folks that are struggling with learning things, find help, getting tested, finding alternatives, getting support, but also finding people that see your gifts. Everyone has gifts and really favoring those relationships that are supportive. I think it’s just such a great reminder. And perhaps the thing that inspired me the most about this conversation with Myrna was her curiosity. I mean, she is the question queen. It is no joke. When she goes around, she’s asking great questions to people all over the place. And because she has such a powerful curiosity about others and about herself, I remember, full disclosure, I was her piano teacher for a while. And she used to play much better than she does now, according to her, but age has really slowed her down. And I’ve seen her be extremely frustrated at the piano thinking I used to be able to do this and now I can’t, but she faces that frustration and tackles it partially out of the pleasure of playing piano and partially because she’s still learning about herself through the process of playing. And that curiosity to learn more and to grow as a person is just so inspiring with Myrna. So thanks again to Myrna for coming on and sharing all that wisdom. I’m so glad that you’re here listening to this podcast, being part of this community, because I think this is a movement to talk about meaning more. I think as we’re gonna see as this podcast goes on, this problem, this struggle with meaning has a lot of ramifications throughout the rest of society and talking more about this issue is gonna really help have better politics, have better policies around meaning. So please help out as best you can by liking and subscribing any way you can about this podcast. If you wanna learn more, you can go to forgingpurpose.org or check out Summerhays at BlueSky. See you in the next one.